And this is exactly this kind of replies that doesn't push the world and community towards a better place.

But hey it's easier being a douche than being nice to people...

/c

Hands up everyone who can see a problem with demanding the CCP ban people on the basis of "They haven't broken any game rules, and they haven't broken any laws, but I find them personally distasteful"

That could be seen as incitment to riot laugh yer ass off.

When I see calls for "mob justice" based on emotional reactions, I tend to confront them as an adversary, yes.

Sorry I'm not quite as smooth as Atticus Finch

Perhaps one day I will open a newspaper and read an article about how a disgruntled player hunts down and murders a player infamously known for griefing. Or, hopefully not, an article about how a disgruntled player upset by how he/she perceives the community/company to have treated him at large, and go AWOL at a Fanfest.

These are potential risks you know. Should be careful how far you push people and what you allow.

We already had the suicidal guy in the Mittani incident.
Not like this kind of thing is not without precedent.

I think you should be very careful how you choose to treat people.

You asked how I felt about it. I felt that if someone is taking photos of your home, you should probably be very careful how you treat them.

Nope.

Why should I care if someone YOU have pissed off and driven over the edge shows up at your doorstep?

Its not my problem. I didn't **** them off. Its not my doorstep they are at, and its you who are responsible for your own actions in pissing them off.

Thats how the world works, deal with it.
Dont come crying to me when your someone actually comes after you for conduct you yourself are responsible for in the first place.

You are blaming the victim in the recording.

I agree with Malcanis ... silly Jenn.

What's the difference between posting a soundcloud recording, obtained out of game, purely for the further humiliation of the victim versus (say)someone posting a link to an uploaded imgur picture of the outside of your house? It's only bits and bytes right?

Not my problem or fault if you poke, prod, humiliate and grief people who might turn out to be mentally unstable individuals who suddenly might show up IRL in your face, doorstep or an event you are attending.

Im not responsible for your actions, or theirs.

Ill just read about it in the papers and think to myself "Well, they had it coming. Bound to happen sooner or later".

Sure the victim was complicit in his own troubles, but that change whether Erotica 1 is an asshat. Eve isnt a democracy. The sole issue here is whether CCP should look at what erotica 1 has done and decide if it is good for the game and the community. I have no trouble with that at all.

Calling for people to kill themselves IS breaking a law. So yes, yes he did and paid for it.

It's interesting to see how Erotica's behavior is basically a carbon copy of school bully behavior. The bonus room is nothing more than a bully grabbing a kids bag (or coaxing them to hand it over under friendly pretense) and then making the kid do all kinds of humiliating things in order to get it back. And as with all bullies, this sort of behavior is magnified when the bully has friends who cheer him on (otherwise too scared to intervene in fear of becoming the group's next victim or being thrown out of the group).

Now any school bully would, at some point, be forced to stop. Being it a teacher who intervenes, other kids stepping up or the victim themselves punching them in the gut when pushed too far. But this is the internet. And if there's one place where being a bully is easy, it's the internet. No-one to intervene and the victim in this case is powerless to get back at you. No risk of being punched in the gut in these parts! Would that ability exist, Erotica would have had his ass kicked a long damn time ago and quit his bullying.

The only satisfactory thing we can probably take from this is that Erotica, in real life, is probably on the ass end of this scenario. Being the victim of real life school bullying himself in some degree. I assume he's still in school because I hope no adult person with actual responsibilities in real life does this (or any) amount of online bullying and gets enjoyment out of it.

All in all nothing about this shocks me.

1. Regular people tend to turn into massive sadistic trolls and ***holes on the internet because there is no risk of someone punching you in the face, ever. Not shocking.
2. EVE Roleplaying and 'he should have known better' being used as an excuse too justify bullying behavior within the game. Not shocking.
3. Naive victims in EVE Online who get scammed. Not shocking.
4. Those same victims losing all their stuff and either being humiliated or insulted afterwards. Not shocking.

I can understand how easily one gets dragged into a bullying mode though, especially with friends around things tend to go too far too fast. But where normal people look back a few hours later and go 'oh, sh*t, that really went too far...', there are sadistic children like Erotica who happily do it over and over without a sign of guilt or remorse.

Should the guy be banned for the scam? No. Scamming is part of EVE and he actually does a good job at running it from what I can tell.
Should the guy be banned for being an online bully? No, absolutely not. But CCP should make it clear that online bullying like this is unacceptable, period. There is a very distinct line between interacting with an in-game character and bullying a human being. And I would have no problem with CCP enforcing that line.

Anyway, should Erotica1 ever show his face at Fanfest or the CSM and someone decides to roundhouse kick him to the floor... well... I just hope he won't act surprised over it.

As you wish.

French Code Penal article 223-13. Google it, linking doesnt work for some reason.
Roughly translated

"The fact of incitating suicide from a person is punished by three years of imprisonment and a 45000 euros fine when the provocation has been followed by suicide or a suicide attept."

Or is the freaking government site wrong somehow ? Similar laws exist in quite a bit of countries. So yes, i stand by it. This has the potential of being a very serious legal offense.

Hence what i said "This HAS THE POTENTIAL of being a very serious legal offense. We agree on that point.

If someone roundhouse kicked Erotica1, I would laugh and applaud :)

And Im completely within my rights to say and think so, both offline and here on this board.

You can think Im a "bad" person for that, but no law or contract prevents me from laughing or applauding, nor for saying I would.

It wouldnt be me kicking him, and its entirely within my purview how I, as an unassociated autonomous individual, choose to respond to that with laughter and clapping, or to say that that would be my reaction.

I'm not saying that hurt feelings automatically means you get to beat someone up. I'm saying that every action has a consequence and that an internet bully shouldn't think he's safe from those consequences just because it's the internet. Push someone for long enough or hard enough and they will want to hurt you. That's human nature. And if you then arrange yourself to be in the same general area (Iceland) as the person you remotely pushed for long enough, you shouldn't act surprised if he takes a swing at you. There comes a point where you have it coming.

Nope.

Because my laughter and applause is directed at someone who has been actively griefing and humiliating other human beings beyond the pale of civility, even considering the circumstances of EVE as a game, getting it back right in the face.

Erotica1 deliberately, and provably, griefs and humiliates other human beings beyond the scope of the games systems.

I have not.

I'd be genuinely scared for my own security if I was Erotica1. World is full of crazies, you know.
Not like its unprecedented.

Or property. Nor does the other person have to qualify as "innocent" in order to legally justify physical force being used in their defense.

You just showed you are lying about having legal training.

Thanks for playing!

Oh so much wrong with this, and ESPECIALLY as specific to Texas.

Firstly. the circumstances of the threat determine whether force or deadly force is justified, not what is being defended by the act. . Deadly force is not reasonable when someone is attacking either you or your property with a plastic spoon.

Second, police officer protecting a convicted individual in their custody can use necessary force to defend them against an aggressor (for example a relative of whoever the convicted individual had committed a crime against). The person protected is not "innocent", but protecting them with force is still justified.

You are a liar. You don't have any formal legal training.

Basic principle of Eve - you are responsible for your own stuff, and responsible for your own actions. Not your corpmates, not your CEO, not CCP, not your mother.

If you give it away, trade it, put it in a corp hanger, contract it to a total stranger, then it's on you. If you decide to take a problem out of game, onto teamspeak or forums, then it's on you. You, and only you, are the one who clicked "send" or "accept" or "join channel".

o/

This is what CCP created.

Are you Happy?

A hands off approach didn't work too well for Cain. When someone asks you "are you your brother's keeper," there is only one correct answer, "yes."

As much as i agree with some of your points. I cant stop thinking how the hell you get yourself into those debates everytime? How come it eventually goes into "i didnt say that, i said that" and all those lawyery stunts you use to justify your stand?

I understand you are a lawyer, me too (not american). But seeing as just lately a different thread was stripped of 30 pages of this conversations (thx ISD) i cant seem to wonder what is it you are doing wrong? :)

And dont say its their fault ;) if it tepeats everytime, something must be going on...

In this specific case, if this guy actually did do something. And it hit mainstream media, CCP would be dead by Friday!

Try it.

You will see for yourself there is a dedicated department of stonewall/spindoctor/whitewash posters who's purpose here is is to wage forum wars as a supplement to EVE.

They are the ones who cause this repetition, and it is their purpose here.

Try it for yourself. It doesn't take much to set them off.
Try expressing an opinion that questions or undermines a prominent null entity, for example.

I agree with you.

But, if something was to happen. If this was a legitimately unstable person that was a victim and missed a dose of their medication. The mass media, especially American Media, would spin it in whatever way would get them the highest ratings.

Tell me, what would get higher ratings?

Someone who forgot to take his pills and went on a rampage.
Or
Someone who got publicly humiliated on a videogame, then went on a rampage.

I'm wondering what all these defenders of Erotica would say should the victim in question take it to the extreme and harm himself or family in any way. It's still just a game right?

Aaaaand we are on page 15 and no Erotica1 comment yet. Banned already?

I have listened to some of the sound recording and read the articles & comments on Jestertrek and the Minerbumping site. I don't know if the Mittani's site will cover this story. His site is one of the most intelligent but he probably won't touch it given he was involved in a similar event. I haven't found Malcanis replies on this OP but he usually says peculiar things.

I personally think it's alright to do bumping and suicide ganking in-game in that it's usually a roleplay activity or involves actions to disrupt other business or protect your own business interests. Scamming is a bit dodgy but it is usually fairly obvious what is trying to be done. Pilots names, huge bounties on their heads or continual spamming of ridiculous offers gives away what they are about and trying to do. As regards UI loopholes such as open trade where people can change what is being offered mid-exchange to steal the other guys stuff should be stopped by CCP along with any other market discrepancies but that's just my opinion. I don't think new players falling foul of UI loopholes reflects well on CCP or any of us. It crosses a line in the sand.

On the other hand I don't think people such as Erotica should be using TS or other voice software to scam people. If you throw the 'I will double your ISK' comments out in in-game chat channels and people bite then they deserve all they get. All except new players will know this is a scam and new players will probably only get caught once and not with that much ISK lost. But if you invite people into a TS channel and scam them for everything they have that is not on and Erotica and her cohorts should have the sense to realise that. It is one step away from telephone 'cold-callers' or door to door salesmen scamming old age pensioners out of their RL savings.

I think anyone should be able to deduce from the victims voice on the sound recording, even though he has an American accent, that he is a vulnerable person. I get the feeling he was not greedy and genuinely thought he was going to gain ISK I'm not sure why but I get that feeling. It is morally bankrupt to treat someone like that even though it probably would be difficult to argue in a court of law that a crime had been committed. It is even more ugly to take the **** out of someone who has a handicap or disability such as a speech impediment. Once Erotica got to this point she had in my view crossed the line beyond which CCP should take action on Erotica's account.

I think CCP should therefore return any transferred assets from Erotica to the victim and take some kind of action against Erotica and maybe against the other offenders in TS channel. Suspensions for the other offenders and maybe removal of Erotica and all her in-game assets

Small issue is that Eve Online is not aimed at just adults but for 12+ years and above.

Erotica 1 is outrageously smart. I'm pretty sure he knows a 12yr old can't give the consent he asks for at the beginning of the audio recordings. Yes, yes you heard right.. Erotica 1 asks the "victim" for consent to record the whole thing.

One point for those who have said he could of just left.

E1 is using something a kin to the Prior Investment Trap. This is something used by many conman / woman in real life to trick all kinds of people out of their money.

Much like in real world governance, some people feel that responsibility has no end. Nanny state for all, in game and out.

Again not everything is black and white, you have to take each occurrence / situation / event on its own merits.

So E1's fanbase is trying to defend him against CCP by bringing up the argument that he did nothing against the EULA because he used Team Speak... and they are also trying to defend him against any (possible) legal actions because all he did was to harass somebody in a game?

It should speak volumes about the community's state when a CSM candidate is defending these kind of actions.

Thanks for the unwarranted judgement . Good to see your playing an MMO with "the worst gamers" you've ever met. Your pretty sheltered for a 50 yr old hey? Head on over to LoL forums if you want to see toxic.

Let me return the favor. You seem like an irrelevant anti social moron who plays an mmo by himself and only opens his mouth when he has something ****** to say about the community. I suspect you have very few friends, and that if you were to leave this community not a single soul would miss you.

I wouldn't say any of that stuff though because I'm not a judgemental ****. Like you.

Sure, I can. "Is this guy costing us subscriptions?"

For someone who usually posts intelligently, you have completely missed the point. You're stuck in the "ideals of the sandbox" mindset. This topic isn't about ideals or the sandbox, it's about brand identity. CCP is free to do whatever they like. But they're a business. There are consequences for allowing these sorts of things to continue. Right or wrong, real or unreal, sandbox or no sandbox, sooner or later one of these incidents is going to end with someone doing something REALLY crazy. That's the day EVE will become "that game where..." that Ripard is talking about. All the petty arguments about sandbox ideals won't mean a thing when the press has a field day pointing out the inevitable result of sociopathic behavior.

Bittervets had better wake up; the sci fi MMO genre is taking off and competition is heating up. The EVE sandbox is totally and utterly dependent on a critical mass of players. Every player they lose and every player they gain is critical to the ecosystem. Everything they can do to preserve the hardcore nature of the game while tempering the asshattery is a good thing. You can pretend otherwise, but EVE's day of reckoning is coming. It won't be dramatic. It will be a slow, steady bleed of players tired of the status quo, the asshattery, and the never ending defense of the indefensible. It will be a slow, steady bleed of players who realize that they can get online and have immediate space fighting fun without the torturous grinding and clicking that EVE offers.

I don't agree with everything Ripard writes or with every solution he proposes. But he has a generally good point in this current posting theme, EVE has a toxic brand identity. That's not a good thing, no matter how you spin it.

I guess this just goes to show that there's a Sohkar born every minute.

(I haven't read this whole thread so sorry if someone else thought of the joke first.)

'Let's make the world safe for gullible idiots!'

Ummm, no, let's not and say we did.

Ok. I think cyber bullying is a bullshit term made up by soccer moms to explain their own failings to teach their children how to properly defend themselves in this dog eat dog world. I think it's utter garbage spewed by socialists and busybodies who are terrified because the internet represents something they can't control.

At it's most base it is a form of thought control from people like you who think they are on the moral highground.

Turn your ******* computer off. Delete your facebook. In this case, just DON'T GO INTO THE BONUS ROUND WITH A KNOWN SCAMMER.

Why is it that folks like you ALWAYS need the authorities (CCP) to fight your battles for you? Man the **** up son.

You would think all of these people here who want to see me dead in real life would vote for me for CSM! Someone asked why I'm not responding... I'm on page 13 and everytime I hit the next page, this thread grows by one or two pages.

In 21st century many of our generation forget that virtual scamming, bashing or whatever is real(life) scamming, bashing etc. because you are dealing with REAL human beings!!

I'd puke in Erotica's face if I'd meet him in rl (hope I never will), however, EVE Online gives him the platform for his pathetic intentions.

Scamming is one thing, but that is pathetic.

There are two separate contexts involved here.

What is happening in-game, and what is happening outside the game.

1) Ingame:

Erotica1 is free to and within his rights to perpetrate as many scams as he wants. His doubling scheme, insofar as what happens ingame, is allowed and fine. He can aquire ingame assets from other whether consentually by them giving them to him, or by ingame aggression. This is the same and true for all in EVE.

Nobody is claiming that what is happening ingame is a violation of EULA, the games rules or its internal context.

When someone hands over their assets ingame to Erotica1, that is their own choice (though an emminently stupid one) and there is no recourse for complaint either legally or to CCP.

This part is all well and fine. What is actually happening inside the game is not a problem.

2) Outside the game:

This is where the problems arise. Though ingame, everyone is operating under the EULA and CCPs service terms, what happens outside of the game (in this case in 3rd party voice chat communications) the individuals are no longer operating as "characters" ingame. They are now autonomous, responsible and accountable people subject to the rule of law and social norms as is everyone else in all activities in their mundane lives outside of the game.

They are no longer players in a game, they are now people.

What Erotica1 is doing to these other PEOPLE, outside of the game, is absolutely and unequivocably illegal.

Though the assets ingame have already been transferred, legitimatelymboth legally and within the context of the game itself, he then begins an extended process of blackmailing the PERSON, in a 3rd party out of game format, as an independant and responsible and accountable PERSON himself.

By holding the ingame assets as ransom, he blackmails the PERSON OUTSIDE OF THE GAME for return of those ingame assets.
This is no longer hapoening within the game, it is outside of it. He is no longer using the games internal mechanics in order to scam someone, he is doing it IN PERSON to that OTHER PERSON in a format that is OUTSIDE the games context.

As to the actual mechanisms of that blackmail, those are apparent in the recording, and carry several aggravating instances.
-He holds the ingame assets as ransom against the PERSON to perform OUT OF GAME demeaning tasks, such as in this case PERSONALLY reading OUT OF GAME texts.
-The incident is aggravated by demonstrable malice, because there is no longer any INGAME assets to be aquired through the process. Erotica1 already has the other players assets at this point. Ecerything that happens in the voice chat is NOT for the purposes of aquiring any more ingame assets, by blackmailmhappening outside the game, but by MALICE to demean and humiliate the victim.
-That Erotica1 does this with INTENT is demonstrated by the fsct this is not a one off incident. It is not defensible as a one off emotional act without planning or intent. It is systematic and repeated.
-Including other people in the recordings, and other specifics of the act of blackmail, he induces DURESS on the victim. In this specific even to the extremepoint that the victims wife, concerned for the demonstrably harmed harmed victim, tried to entreat cessation of the blackmail.
-The incident is protracted. This is not a 5min affair, the tormenting continues for a full fking 2hrs. This raises the degree of severity of the crime implicitly, as an aggravating element.

CCP is not responsible for this.

Erotica1 is HIMSELF completely responsible for his own conduct outside of the game, which is where ALL of this occurs.

In my opinion, Erotica1s actions OUT OF THE GAME constitute illegal and criminal behavior.

As such, I hope that one of his victims does indeed report this matter to their local police, regardless of jurisdiction.

Furthermore, CCP is also in my view completely within its rights to file charges against Erotica1 for misusing the service they provide to enable his OWN illegal activities of blackmail.

And if the blackmail charges dont stick, the case can be tried as any number of charges relating to willfully causing psychological harm and duress to another person in voth criminal and civil courts.

The one existing precedent we have of this, is the Mittani incident. But The Mittani DID NOT BREAK ANY LAWS.
Even in that case, and as is generally held as a good thing, CCP took actiin to indicate that it does not, as a company, endorse or support anti-social behavior inside OR OUTSIDE the game, as an extension of their services.

To those who argue that CCP delineating on this wouldnbe amslippery slope threatening the precious nature of EVE that we all love, that is not a valid concern for two reasons:

1) Erotica1s conduct in the recording happens OUTSIDE OF THE GAME. What he is doing is not EVE. It is not natural to the game. It is happening OUTSIDE the game.

2) The slippery slope argument works both ways. If CCP does not delineate that it does not support thismkind of behavior by any extension in relation to its services and client base, then this kind od thing that Erotica1 is doing by EXTENSION from the game will only conceivably get worse, to the absolute worst case scenario of some disgruntled individual actually showing up to a Fanfest with a pipebomb. I strongly urge that CCP needs to protect its clients from persons like Erotica1 utilising their service for activities such as this. The EULA stipulates that players can and should be protected from this kind of behavior.

So if my girlfriend is an EVE player and I bang her sister, I'm banned?

Erotica1 is, with malice, willful forethought and intent, extorting/blackmailing victims OUTSIDE OF THE GAME by holding their INGAME assets ransom.

The entire "Bonus Room" is an external context, outside of EVE, in which he is dealing with people as people, with himself and all associated persons involved, as legal real entities.

What he is doing OUTSIDE OF THE GAME is extremely and unequivocably, illegal.

And you believe this to be a real world crime, so I ask again, when did the cops care about my space stuff? Can I call them when I lose my next ship?

There is such a thing as psychological extortion.

Furthermore a person has time and effort invested in those items so who are you to say the items have no value?

That's a good point. The guy who got griefed is obviously not popular in-game, no one has heard of him. He has a speech impediment and is from the sound of things gullible. All things that make him ripe for ridicule, apparently.

Meanwhile, Erotica1 has many friends on the forums who don't want to see him punished, they are out in droves trying to justify that recording. They don't want their "fun" or their popular guy threatened.

So Malcanis, you "white knght" Erotica1 because he is "somebody" in the community and the other guy is a "nobody"

So you are backing the "in crowd" over the "outcast". That's justice for you...

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

So here goes for news coverage.

ITT "don't dangle restitution in front of your marks and have them join your comms to humiliate themselves for two hours while you make fun of their speech impediment" is apparently an unreasonable request on the community.

The only hoops you that are being jumped through are the ones that you are your friends are frantically skipping through to rationalize outright cruelty. Sure the victim walked into it, sure he should be fleeced, this is Eve not "Hello Kitty" but that recording goes far beyond that.

You defend it because you identify more strongly with what Erotica1 did and you support that type of behavior in the game. Just be honest and say it.

You have not been advocating a middle ground.

In this situation, there is no middle ground. This is not just about scamming. Scam are a part of eve, that will not change.

This is about players standing against the vitriolic and toxic nature of certain groups in eve who strive to ensure hate and spite are promoted so they get their 'kicks.'

This is not a call for a themepark. This is a call to return civility to the game.

The sh*t that goes on in this game has nothing to do with 'grown folks', in fact it's quite the opposite. Cyber bullying has nothing to do with scamming and it has nothing at ALL to do with an 'adult' game. How you ever get to this notion is completely beyond me. In what weird world do you live where behavior like this, online or not, is considered normal?

This is but one asshat among many and Valkyrie is every bit as dangerous to "original" EVE as Star Citizen and the other games coming down the pipe.

I love how some players like to pretend that EVE is difficult. It's not. Your woefully misguided mentality is the kind of thing that kills many businesses. "My product is great! Those people are just haters! I'm not going to change anything! We didn't want those customers anyway!"

most enjoyment in this game is derived from ruining some one's day. the difference is, this guy could close TS whenever he wanted.

hell, it was easier for him to remove himself from this situation than it is to safely log out of eve.

i agree, that guy was completely racist and verbally abusive. he's not the type of player we want in this game.

You discount the level of emotional attachment that was involved after a while. I am not defending the person that was scammed here at all.

That someone is gullible and perhaps not that smart is not reason to prolong the situation for as long as it went on.

That's my concern. The length of time that this went on is slightly disturbing to a number of people.

Forest for the trees.

Who cares if a law was broken. Arguing that is a pointless waste of time outside a recognized court of law in the appropriate jurisdiction.

The forest, in this case, is the perception and what CCP is going to do about it before it hits the mainstream media. Games have been set back months or even years for less.

Promoting asshatery in a game sells subs. Allowing it to be carried out of the game loses them. CCP is well aware of the situation and the perception is that they don't care.

That's going to come back to bite them on the ass.

Mr Epeen

But we must admit, if you did press charges, wouldn't it be rather awkward to explain what you were doing and why at the time you got threatened? I'd hate to be on a witness stand with that story and a jury of people who live in the "real world" is not going to see any victims at the point where all the facts are known.

1984 was a book about the absolute bottom of human social behavior and manipulation.

Maybe choose a different metaphor to make your particular case.

As stated before. Not everyone reacts in the same way. I don't need to argue with you. My issue is not with you.

My issue is with the length of time it went on, the obvious pleasure that was derived from someone else's discomfort and the lack of recognition from the protaganist that it had gone far enough.

When you tie that in to how it will (or won't) affect CCP's reputation I think it is a bad thing. It was just too much.

They can act on it or not - that's up to them. I'll be watching with interest.

Let's be clear on what happened and where the problem lies: it lies in the cowardice and lack of morality of Erotica 1.

Drawing a player in the net of the bonus-room scam is easy, as there are many not so smart players in EVE.
But abusing such a "limited" person for more than 2 hours is beyond description in terms of stupidity and lack of conscience.

I believe in Karma and I think these despicable acts will be paid for in due time.

For the moment, I hope CCP does react and does something. If they don't, I will have to cancel my subscription as I don't want to be involved in a game and a community endorsing such activities without raising an eyebrow.

i think this thread is a great way to judge how many people would love themepark eve vs those of us that came explicitly not to be handheld.

The audio recording is horrible. I challenge anyone who finds this behavior acceptable to play the recording to your mom, or your wife, and then proudly say to that person, "I support this behavior."

CCP has provided Erotica1 with a soapbox, that soapbox needs to be removed. I leave the 'how' to CCP.

So what about the RL death threats and racism?

If its someone who I know has spent 2hrs tormenting a victim and his wife to the point of breaking, for no other reason than to sadistically enjoy their suffering and to share their recording of it with "friends", yes, I will absolutely laugh and applaud.

Just posting to say that there's a line here. It's terribly blurry, but it's there. Nobody is going to be able to clearly define it. But nobody really needs to. It makes sense to me that CCP own the game; they own all the ones and zeros that make up New Eden and story the history of every pilot to have ever flown there. If they wanted to strip the privilege of being a part of this from someone, I think they have the right.

Now I just have to figure out how to impart my opinion that the line has been crossed here and Erotica 1 and friends are on the wrong side of it. Maybe typing this is enough; it probably isn't.

EVE is amazing in the way it provides countless ways for players to punish other players -- when they don't necessarily deserve any punishment at all. But, when it comes to a way to punish players who are completely deserving but know how to protect themselves (alts that never leave a station or that leave a station only in a disposable ship with the expectation of being blown up) there is very little recourse. This one is not and can not be in the hands of the players.

Once you go from scamming a player of all in-game assets and move on to crushing his dignity you've gone too far. Somewhere between those two points is the line. Please make a stand somewhere CCP.

Salvos, you're really not helping yourself here...

Mags, Baltec, Dave, Jenn et al: Stop the broken record already! We know that the victim used some bad words and slurs when, after two hours of torment, he finally snapped (losing his composure, temper and possible a few marbles). Does that make his use of said words excusable? No. Does it make his stream of invective understandable? Yes. Let's move on shall we?

The words the victim used, or the threats, empty or otherwise, made towards E1 were made after 2 hours of systematic psychological and emotional abuse. Yes, they were bad words. We get it. Really.

This harmless singing humiliation thing. I've only heard about it in child's playgrounds... and mafia/military films.

Just for perspective Is Erotica in his teens yet? If so this is evidence of a compulsive uncontrollable age regression. The malice and forethought plus the regression is typical of most incarcerated criminals. Under the hardened skin is a child treating others as they themselves have been treated. They take on their parents or significant relationships role, Curse or Witch role depending on gender, They are similar except for repressed sexual content or lack thereof.

In most of the sympathizers response we see the banal script of powerlessness as it has been called. In the proponents of this action, through their referrals to legality are playing out the banal script of Inequality. This script has a lot to do with competition. Unfortunately the competition is between male and female psyches. Erotica is of course the female being the manipulator. When a woman does this to a man its amusing until it get destructive. Its actually a form of penile envy that expresses itself like most jealousies as a passive aggresive angry vengeance (oral violence). As the severity of the game progresses it develops from oral to anal elements. And yes, extreme obsessions with rigid structures is an anal compulsion.

In real life this is what women do to men when they lead them on and then reject them acting outraged. It can progress to actual charges of **** or violence against the person they are victimizing. Many have seen this in action in the clubs. You know, the ones that flash you then act as if they didn't do it and that your a meat hound. The only solution is to stay away, we know that, and thats why we stay away. The undercurrent is to prove the victim is lascivious, thereby justifying that all men are bad and avoiding the pain of dealing with her daddy issues.

One last point about the anal characteristics of this female game. According to Erickson human development theory, the perpetrator was perpetrated on a bit later. Probably between 3.5 to 8 years. Erotica would do well to isolate trauma(s) during this age, abandonment, abuse, and shame projections of others and have a professional help (HER) process it.

Barring Erotica's own seeking of help, do to the poor adaptation of these women, they do not tolerate antithesis well and usually run if not supported by others of peer to continue there justification of man hatred. Without admiration the patient flees treatment and is instead best counseled with groups of similar minded peers that have shown some reversal. These people don' t pile on the shame and pain on top of subconscious wounds. CCP would do many people a service including Erotica by not condoning this play-style. Its an illness.

Coming from a person that has made two threats of RL violence against Ero?

You are aware that in the UK (where you seem to be) making threats of physical violence against someone is a criminal offense, right?

He could have left at any time.

Honestly Anslo, I do find the bonus room to be a distasteful practice and it is definitely not my thing. I've said before that I feel it went too far on comms, and despite my appreciation for the content E1 creates I stand by that. Personally I think that scamming etc is best kept in game, if for no other reason than to prevent the Ripard Tegs of the world from making a federal case out of it.

I also laughed when sokhar flipped out, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

It's a complex issue, but at the end of the day I am far more uncomfortable with censorship than I am with the bonus room.

Do I think any bullying occurred here though? No. The guy was 100% complicit in his experience. To call that torture is wildly polemical at best.

Do I think anyone should get the banhammer over this? I don't think out of game comms is CCP's purview personally, but that being said it is their game and their choice as to who they let play it.

I think what makes me most uncomfortable with this **** is how the guys like sokhar get caught up in these bonus rooms. Dude has been playing Eve for seven years. How in the hells do you fall for something like this with seven years of gameplay under your belt?

Erotica1 is sourcing his victims from EVEs community for an out of game "Bonus Room" torture session.

There is no ISK in it. There is nothing related to the game, except the victim, at all in it.
The only outcome and purpose, is causing harm and suffering to the victim which is then recorded for the amusement of other sadists.

He finds his victims from the EVE player base by means of his (legitimate) ISK doubling activities ingame.

Once he has a hook in them, he then convinces them to hand over their assets (again, legitimately).

What is NOT legitimate, is telling those people that they have to join an OUT OF GAME "Bonus Room" to get it back.

That crosses the line. At that point you are illegitimately carrying an EVE Scam to the person themselves, in a context that extends outside the purview of the game.

This is explicitly forbidden and ruled against in the EULA and also by this declaration in the CSM constitution:

"FREEDOM FROM UNDUE EXTERNAL INFLUENCES
First, individuals have the right to be free of undue external influences in the virtual society. To enforce this
right, the EULA, TOS and other legal documents define the boundary which separates a playerGÇÖs real life actions
from his or her virtual ones. As mentioned earlier, this is a non-negotiable social contract that is essential for
maintaining the cohesion of any virtual society. These rules establish a framework for real world personal
behavior and decision making that limits the amount of external influence that can be leveraged in the game
world"

At the point that Erotica1 makes it a condition of his scam that someones steps OUTSIDE of EVE in order to participate, he is extending the scam beyond the purview of EVE. Furthermore, if successful in luring a victim to his "Bonus Room" he is externally influencing that person, externally from the game, on the specific contract/scam that he offered to the player ingame.

This is post #15 on page 1 of a 72 page threadnought, and should have ended the discussion.

Is this the way I play EvE, or the way 99.9% of everyone else plays? No, thankfully. It's pretty despicable. But it's not actionable, or illegal, or the result of anything but the stupidity and greed of the sad sack on the receiving end. Caveat emptor.

*EDIT* Sorry it's now up to 73 pages, and counting.

I expect to at least see new guidelines from CCP about this sort of thing. If that doesn't happen you'll be happy to know I'll be cancelling my 8 existing subs and playing something else.

Bullshit. Death threats are inexcusable. His emotions are his responsiblity, no one else's.

It's all a bit disturbing, I log in to play with fictional space ships, in a fictional universe, filled with a fairly equal number of fictional villains and heroes, but in the forums I find some other player logged in to do the same and due to his inexperience was lured into both RL and in game ridicule.

That is not that game I originally started to pay to play; as this plays out, if it continues, I will be finding another form of entertainment to spend my money on. I cannot condone or support these players out of game actions and will not be further associated with this level of RL depravity in my fictional refuge.

Not the first time I read this "the victim could have left anytime" argument.
That's true for someone like you and me. But apparently, there is a fine selection process before being given access to this now famous bonus-room.
Imagine if the selection process was random, how boring it would be, having bonus-room sessions lasting only 30 seconds cause the lucky winner left the room almost immediately ?
But no, you can count on Erotica 1 and friends, they know what they are doing. They choose their targets very accurately and they know they will fall for it and stay for a long time.
They must be very proud this time, as Sokhar was exceptional in terms of duration, far beyond their greatest expectations.

So no, this "the victim could have left anytime" argument does not hold, not when the victim is specifically selected not to leave the room too fast.

Where do we go like that with the help yourself, grow a thick skin or die attitude ? What's the next step ? Not helping handicapped people in a wheelchair because you know, they could have made an effort and moved their ass, they have two arms, they could use them ?

Maybe you find me too caring or too idealistic but I cannot see the weak being abused without strongly reacting, especially when such a trap for the weak is so carefully designed and well prepared.

I would like everyone to take a little time. Google "Eve Online" and look under news.

The first Article gives off a "bit" of bad press. As it is titled "Here's some of the Cyberbullying that happens in EVE online"

Was it actually bullying according to the definitions? Idk, could sohkar of left? yes. Could E1 of just stopped, yes.

But it is every player in this game that contributes to Articles being titled like that. Gives a really bad vibe to non eve players. Just look in massively's comment section. Quite a few say they will never try eve because of stuff like this. And who's to really blame.

We are. The whole eve community was born on HTFU and ate scams for breakfast. Now it's just toxic. (turns out scams aren't a part of a daily nutritional breakfast)

Idk about you guys, but i'm ashamed to be a part of a community that condones this.

/thread.

Hi, my name is Joe.
I have a reputation for kicking small children grown folks who give consent 1st in the face.
A week ago this boy of age 7 Grown married man stood in front of me in the grocery store line so I kicked him in the face after he signed a release form.
Kid grown married man old enough to consent to many things including playing EVE Online should have known better than to stand in front of me, after all I do have a reputation.
To punish his stupidity I kicked him in the face and stomach several more times after he left and came back asking for more.

You seem to be having trouble telling where they separate.
If you torment someone for hours on a voice chat to the point where you're systematically attacking things like speech impediments, then it certainly has gone too far and crossed into the point of torment.

He wasn't "free to leave" at any time. His leaving would mean instant forfeiture of all of the assets he'd previously handed over. Of course at that point he was never getting them back, but him not realizing that doesn't suddenly justify what was done.

Who deprived that bigot of sleep?
Who allowed the interrogation to take place?
Which racist isolated himself?
Which homophobe was greedy?
How is ignoring a small speech hickup anything more than common courtesy?

Why are you trying so hard?

D.

If they mean nothing to you then you're free to hand all of yours over to me.
I'm sure if you got duped into giving all of your assets away you'd shrug it off instead of trying to find any way possible of getting them back.

That in no way implies that he wasn't free to leave at any time if he decided things had gone too far.

He's an adult, quit assuming you need to do his thinking for him.

I don't know why you're being willfully obtuse. You know better. You all know better.

There's quite the difference between the actions and words of an angry man, and the purposeful provocation and humiliation inflicted by E1.

Anger brings out the worst of us.
You can expect an angry (or a drunk) man to act as a stupid and vile person.

What's disgusting is E1's lucidity, while doing all of this.

Don't try to blame the victim.

Look at all these people surprised at someone saying nasty things when provoked.

I'm also especially curious about this because it seems to me the people defending Erotica 1 are many of the same people who more or less wanted The Mittani burned at the stake two years ago.

Its possible to disagree with a play style without vilifying anyone, but torches and pitch forks is more the mob mentality approach. In the end, it doesn't do any good for anyone.

Same here.

Mittens screwed up, got drunk as hell, and said some things that were quite awful and a bit embarassing.

Unlike our "victim" here, Mittens owned up to his words, issued a public apology, and seemed genuine about it.

Just think of the support our "victim" could get from the community if he simply dropped in and said "Wow, I hate Erotica1 and scammers are the worst and I think CCP should alter their rules to not allow scams of this nature, but that does not justify me issuing death threats against his mother and dropping n bombs like it's 1950. I was wrong, and I regret what I said." - it would be amazing. I'd give him a billion ISK right now if he'd man up like Mittens did.

Yes.
But your real life analogy is not accurate.

E1 was not harmed here.
You can say whatever you want, but no harm came of this to Erotica 1.

The one and only harmed person, here, is the gullible man called Sokhar.
He was provoked and humiliated, recorded and made fun of.

The death threats (of an angry man) were the reactions.

The response does not justify Erotica 1's behaviour.

There's a chronological order to respect, when debating faults.

The "proper reaction" is irrelevant, as this person was brought to what I would never call a "proper" state of mind.

Still see people referring to the assets as 'pixels' and 'fake items'. And that it's a no consequence people are tormented for them because it's all not real. Just simply trivializing the whole thing. "Just could have left" get repeated here.

Maybe some perspective can help the non-caring and cold. So going to spell it out super simple so everyone can understand.

It doesn't end at pixels. The pixels are a representation, a proxy of sort, of one's time, investment, and effort. When dangling assets to make someone perform for amusement, you're not holding a fake item that further yet has no value to start with or end with, you are holding their time spent, the effort invested. And quite possibly a little bit of emotional and/or sentimental tokens.

Why do you think this bonus room thing can even exist in the first place, and why someone would spend hours in it to attempt getting their stuff back? "simply leaving" is more difficult than you want to imagine it being. Leaving will be to turn your back on all that time and effort you've spent working for what you have.

Sure, it is just pixels in the most literal sense. And they are fake.
But the time, work, and personal investment is certainly real. And that is what's being held above a victim's head in the bonus room.

But the racial abuse did not happen within EULA domain.
Neither did Erotica 1's actions.

You have an issue with reading comprehension: I have already stated that I do not care about what happens to the two of them: I am only arguying the resons of my positions on this matter.

I find Erotica 1's behaviour disgusting, and that's what I'm arguing.

*Cough* "Proximate cause"

I should know better than arguing with people like you; I can't show you that which you refuse to see.

Hours of humiliation is clearly abuse.

Abuse is clearly against the terms of service.

Violation of terms of service is legitimate grounds for banning.

Where is the confusion?

I'm curious. Why is everyone (well a good percentage, anyway) using a guys racial slurs and death threats made after the fact to negate everything that led up to it?

Strange way to justify what a freakin' sick douche does for jollies.

Mr Epeen

Dear Jenn Awhine, as usual you miss the point, it is not the scamming which was the problem but the making fun of a person's speech impediment which was taking things too far.

Still, Jenn, you gotta sound tough all the time, or you would lose face with the hard-man trolls in the game.

He's a sadistic & really creepy person.

That's an easy one. There would be a temp ban for racism and a permanent ban + report to the police for the death threats.

Scamming and asking people to voluntarily sing songs is well within the TOS.

*SIGH*
You really want to have common sense and morality covered by laws?
Either disingenuous or naive. There's miles of cruelty and misery not covered by laws.
Stop pushing the 'Legislate for common sense or gtfo' button, it has never worked.

Nevermind the part where he & several other people did their best over two hours to illicit this exact response. You seem to be justifying the act with the result, which was clearly intended.

your attempting to derail the real question here is admirable.

the case in point here is whether it is an acceptable form of emergent gameplay and if what happened in TS by both parties was levelled at the ingame character / avatars or not

it is clear that the contestant went ballisitic
it is clear the E1 was not doing this for in game gain as the gain had already been made before the other stuff happened.

you should probably stop being so asinine and look at this for what it really is. Both parties acted in an out of game non EVE related way.

EVE is a harsh mistress and this is good... I think we all agree on this, he deserved to lose all his stuff he should have just HTFU .

However Erotica is a douche.....I think we can all agree on this. One day he will get his...we are playing a game on the internet and there are 'unstable' people online. Erotica thinks he is immune from harm but if he continues he will one day anger the wrong target.
There are people online who are smarter then him and can find his home address. ( I once spent 3 hours on TS stopping an alliance mate from driving 800 miles with a shotgun to 'punish' another alliance member for disrespecting female corp. mate) . In Erotica's case I wouldn't waste the time and would smile when I saw the news report. And that in a nutshell is CCP's problem because the **** will hit the fan when it happens.

He took advantage of someone, and you can't understand that person got upset and angry.... welcome to the real world...

Yeah, whatever.

By your own reasoning it doesn't count because it was made outside the game and thus breaks no rules.

What's good for the goose...and all that stuff.

Mr Epeen

Great logic... you should join the bonus round table of interviewers, i can easily pictures you sitting there telling a person who has just been scammed out of everything and ridiculed for hours, that he should be angry at himself for being a dumb ****...

Last i checked it's not illegal to be rascist or homophobic, just socially unacceptable,

Oh wait thats what this entire thread is about....

Cultural and social acceptabilities in an online game...

...

...
/enlightenment

If the 'mob' is the kind of mob I expect it is, then any answer will be indicative of Ero's evil. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. They just hate him, plain and simple, and this isn't the event that caused the hate, just the one that triggered the mob.

How homophobic of you. Can we pls get a ban for homophobic behavior.

Please take 5 secs and realize we are angry about actions that happened outside game. Be as much a douche in game as you want but the second you made it personal you went to far. It had gone beyond what could be profited ingame. It was now about watching a human being emotionally break. Evil is like a cancer. It evolves. E1 isnt satisfied with being evil in game. He had to take in to the next level. He wanted to hear the anguish of his victims. Next he will want to see it. The bonus round will get progressively worse until its having humans hurt animals as he watches for his sick amusement. We are collectively done with this pile of filth. We don't want this evil in our community. We dont want to be a part of this. We dont want eve attached to this kind of behavior. Be a villain the AD says for eve. Yea a villain in game using in game mechanics. Not a RL villain hurting people outside of the game. Wrap your head around that.

Would you believe the bonus room is legit if he did?
Or are you just looking for cheap laughs when stupid, greedy people sing songs to get space rich?

Anyhow, it doesn't matter one bit.

Read this, same stuff happening, did RVB get tortured or something there? Call the police if so!

I'm gonna post this every time someone beats the poor dead horse;

What happend;
Ero: Give me your isk and I double it.
Adult ATC: Here's all my isk
Ero: haha, you need to come on teamspeak and win a bonus round where I invent the rules as we go
Adult ATC: ok
Ero: read this text please
Adult ATC: Ok, N-BOMB, Gaybash, shout, scream, rant
Ero: Sing songs
Adult ATC: NO! N-BOMB, Gaybash, shout, scream, rant
Adult ATC: I'l gonna kill you!
Adult ATC: My wife will come and scream at you some more

How it should have been;
Ero: Give me your isk and I double it.
Adult ATC: Here's all my isk
Ero: haha, you need to come on teamspeak and win a bonus round where I invent the rules as we go
Adult ATC: Wait what? Naaaah... You scammed me, well played.

What normal people do:
Ero: Give me your isk and I double it.
Adult ATC: No way dude, I know it's just pixels but I want to buy space bling with them.

D.

this. my sir. this is what i wnat to hear.


theres hope.

LOL, way to dramatize everything way out of proportion.

The problem with your position is that its based on Slippery Slope Fallacy.

1) Erotica1s actions are only "out of game" in the most pedantic sense. They are a final step in a progression of events that takes place in game, and directly relate to and concern the disposition of in game assets. Out-of-game software is used only to evade obvious violations of CCPs terms, and allow the sort of amateurist legal argument you are making. Even in real life law there are principles of equity and fairness in application; not just a linguistic battle to see who is closer to the letter of the law or contract, hence why we have lawyers argue cases rather than linguists.

2) It is a Slippery Slope Fallacy to claim that CCP would be open to any and all calls for bans by any group becaus they banned oneplayer based on a generalized community reaction. "People who don't like Erotica 1" are not a group in any meanngful sense; their unity is solely around the issue at hand. CCP could just as easily be pressured to ban gays by homophobes or Russians whether or not they ban Erotica; th dollar vote is equally strong. CCP on the other hand has absolutely no obligation to listen to those groups just because they ban Erotica 1; it is not as if homophobes or Russians have any right to demand "consistency", andCCCP would not be inconsistent in the first place. Being gay is unrelated to game play; Erotica's performance is directly connected to it, pedantic claims that its "out of game" notwithstanding.

You make a poor attempt at reducio ad absurdm based on slippery slope and pedantry. Neither vays nor scammers are at any risk if Erotica 1 gets banned.

Do you have any evidence to back up those "facts"?

Personally I never knew the guy to be more than just a jita scammer before I heard the recordings. Got no problem with scamming, got a problem with internet bullies though.

Scamming is fine, ganking is fine, I like Eve. But I don't see how you can consider it fun to set up such a room.

This is the community expressing its condemnation of Erotica1's conduct.

I wanted him to sing 'Wind Beneath My Wings' while simultaneously faking an orgasm, or 'Smells like teen spirit' in spoken word form, by the style of William Shatner.

Lynch mob is a bit extreme, he's only calling for Erotica 1 to be banned from a simple computer game.

Whilst the rules are not definitive, they rarely are for a reason, there is certainly the room in them for CCP to declare if E1 was in wrong and punish him.

Yeah that Sohkar is a real bad guy, without reason or prior provocation he just logs on to E1's TS server and verbally abuse him, and that was exactly what happen, E1 is clearly the victim here!

and now it's time to snort 2cb mixed with ketamine, and smoke some dmt.

Incorrect, there are many EVE players in here stating that even though it was in extremely poor taste Erotica 1 violated no rules and does not deserve a ban.

Mostly because a lot of us aren't prone to hysterical knee jerk reactions, and/or believe that if the "victim" is a more than willing participant you can't really deem the proceedings as "torture".

This last part....LMAO So ironic since that is exactly what E1 does. Hurt people so he and his friends can lulz.

Wow, emotional abuse is just as real and hurtful as physical abuse. You are delusional.

It went way past hurt feelings of lost pixels. It went well into emotional distress and abuse caused by E1.

There is no such thing as the "claim it's all a fallacy fallacy." All that is, is you not liking the fact that Malcanis's error in reasoning has been identified and addressed. You utterly failed to address any of my points at all, all you did was LOL as if that's an argument.

There are no "logic holes" (whatever that's supposed to be) either. That's why you didn't identify them, and just asked a rhetorical question about whether I saw them or not - in other words, trying to get people to just accept the assumption that they exist, when in fact, they don't. It's a classic dishonest debate technique from people who don't understand how to construct proper argument.

You, in fact, clearly don't. You've been on the "but then they can ban anyone that anyone else doesn't like!" side the entire time. Actually, they can ban anyone any time and in any case, they won't ban anyone just because someone else doesn't like them; that clearly WOULD be very bad for their business and in any case, "I don't like this other person, ban them" is not the same as "This behavior is clearly unacceptable by established standards, and they are evading punishment by means of legalistic maneuvering (namely, using different software."

If that weren't the case, people wouldn't be trying to have it both ways by arguing CCP shouldn't punish out-of-game behavior, but then also claiming this is "emergent gameplay".

Come back when you understand how to respond to and address points rather than relying on rhetorical games that make no points at all, and inventing "logical fallacies" that don't actually exist. Until you can do that you have no business having your own opinion, much less stating it.

There is a lot of talk about how the mark could have stopped the whole thing at any point.

So could Ero, either Ero did not know he was taking it too far, in which case well... or, he did know and chose to continue, in which case he would be no loss to Eve Online should he be removed from the game.

Basically this.

Don't want or need people like this in the community.

Physically yes. But mentally?

Ero could have stopped the whole thing at any point, but he chose to continue, so if CCP decides to take any action against Ero, then he is also responsible for the consequences.


I assume Ero is a grown man.

Hmm, that is not the issue here. Out of the audio I heard that he is well playing the game and had no problems, till Ero came up and problems began. The game is PEGI 12 btw.

He didn't say he was an ATC, he said he 'controls planes'. 'Plane Controller' is a common profession among those trying to make up professions on the spot.

Tell me please, which specific competence do I need for mining veldspar?

No, but it is irrelevant when it states that 'online interactions are not rated by the ESRB'.

Its almost as if he cares about the community. You should take notes.

Part of the reason why I love EVE so much is that when you lose at PVP, you actually LOSE something. It's more tangible than just having to respawn.

I love that I'm potentially ruining someone's day a little by blowing up their space pixels.

That's a sadistic pleasure.

Experiencing even the slightest bit of schadenfreude is also a sadistic pleasure.

So stop bandying about with terms like "morally indefensible", "sadistic", or "psychological torture".

If you've ever committed corp espionage, you've done something that's morally indefensible.

if you've ever performed any activity whatsoever to try and make a person not want to play the game, you've set yourself to find a way to torture their psyche.

If you've ever pvped, or taken pleasure at someone's downfall in EVE (like Mittens being kicked from the CSM), then you've done something sadistic.

The question to be asked is: In a game where you can spend a year, or more, becoming a close friend of people just so you can shank them in the back when it matters most, how is this worse?

... that's not rhetorical.

Man, if Ero 1 does get a ban out of this, the metagame sillyness will be amazing.

We'll need a name for "Infiltrate corp, join voicecoms, and record a person breaking the EULA/ToS to get them banned".

I do not think he deserves a ban within the current set of the games rules. As I said before, victims willingly put themselves through his horrible mind games. They can opt out of playing or leave at anytime they chose. What I would like to see happen is for CCP to change the rules, and if Erotica 1 keeps doing what he's doing, then and only then would he deserve a ban.

The problem is not that Erotica 1 is breaking the rules. It's that he's doing something we should have rules against, which is his method of humiliating players. I have nothing against scamming at all (and this is coming from someone who was scammed in the past). What I do have a problem with is humiliating someone until they break.

Only the first part of these bonus rooms is a scam. The rest is shitting all over someone until they drown in it for several hours.

Out here in the real world you don't get to play the not-technically-breaking-the-rules card.
Mr Epeen

The fact that you can walk away doesn't excuse scumbag behavior.

For instance:

some statistics on this threatan:

Threadnaught

PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS BAD PRESS FOR EVE ONLINE I THINK IT IS GOOD PRESS THIS GAME IS DARK AND TWISTED AND I HAVE HAD FRIENDS COME TO ME AFTER HEARING ABOUT THIS 'INCIDENT' AND PEOPLE WAVING THEIR BITCHFORKS ABOUT SAYING MATE MATE PLEASE GET ME A TRAIL FOR THIS GAME THIS SOUNDS IMMENSE AND THEY PUT DOWN THEIR XBOX TO COME CHECK.

NOT GONNA LIE THEY ARE PLAYING THIS GAME NOW THROUGH A BUDDY INVITE SYSTEM BECAUSE I GAVE THEM A TRAIL.

YOU SEE THE GOOD THAT HAS PERHAPS COME FROM THIS I HAVE GIVEN BIRTH TO SOME NEW PLAYERS. THESE NEW PLAYERS WANT TO BECOME THE NEXT EROTICAL 1 OR THE NEXT JAMES375 BECAUSE THEY ARE WANTING TO PLAY A GAME THAT THEY DIDN'T PREVIOUSLY.

ALL THE PEOPLE WAVING THEIR BITCHFORKS SAYING BAN THIS GUY BECAUSE HE IS BAD. THINK ABOUT IT THAT THIS JUST GOES ON AT ALL TIMES SAID BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. THIS IS NOT ANY DIFFERENT TO THE TIME I FOUND A GUY WHO WARDECCED ME WHO LIVED IN SAME CITY AND TIED HIM TO MY RADIATOR AS PUNISHMENT AND HE DROPED THE WARDEC. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE PERHAPS YOU SAY THAT HE DIDN'T GET HIS STORY PUBLISHED ON A BLOG THAT WANTS AN AUDIENCE FOR A PROPER GANDER CAMPAIGN.

THE EVIL HERE IS RIPARD TEGS AND HIS BRAINWASHING FOLLOWERS. MOST OF THE PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN LISTEN TO THE RANTING RACIST FOUL MOUTHED GUY WHO GOT MAD AND INSTEAD JUST TOOK TO THE FORUMS TO PEN ANGRY POSTS. I AM NOT AN ANGRY MAN. I WOULD HAVE WALKED AWAY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THIS BECAUSE I AM NOT MAD ABOUT THIS INCIDENE TI AM HAPPY THAT IT GOT MY TWO MATES TO COME PLAY WITH ME AND PUT DOWN THEIR CRACK PIPES AND XBOXES.

THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT. WHY IS THIS HOLE THING BAD? I ASK YOU?

ORP.

"Torture is the systematic and deliberate infliction of acute pain by one person on another, or on a third person, in order to accomplish the purpose of the former against the will of the latter." - Amnesty International.

Because he went from scamming the guy to Humiliating him

Actually, most of the comments are painting EVE in a pretty good light.

no, Sokhar was there because of greed.

He abusec Erotica 1 in local before trying the ISK double and then his greed took over.

His responsibility 100% for his choices.

Erotica 1 never approached him. He began the entire thing as anyone does that tries an ISK Doubler. He added the extra bit of abuse in local just for his own reasons though.

So why even try to scam someone, if you aren't gonna get something for nothing.

Oh wait, the scammer did get something for nothing. huh

Last time I checked with any normal person, using the victim being stupid as an excuse for abuse wasn't really kosher.

Mr Epeen

But that guy did sing a song and read some of those speeches, and got no ISK in return, not even 5 ISK, not even 1 ISK.

All I see is a greedy corporation promising their employee they will make lots of money if he works hard, then the corporation pulls out the rug and runs off with all the ISK and assets.

That's a very politically incorrect view you have there - one I partially agree with.

I think victims can contribute to their situation by their actions, but I don't think that in any way mitigates or "excuses" the actions of the perpetrator.

An analogy: the guy that wanders around the bad bit of town dressed in a nice suit and flashing money who subsequently gets mugged is partially responsible for what happened, but the mugger doesn't get to use that as an excuse.

Ban him, those involved in the bonus room crap, and all alt accounts.

Another comment made me choke on my cigarette smoke I was laughing so hard.

"Eroxxed!"

"***** forks!"

*edited so last word above would not get past language filter.

Sokhar is a happy camper, E1 is vindicated. So, Eve, the game we all know and love, ends up doing what Eve does best and the morally outraged cry babies all have egg on their face.

I call that a happy end.

Should CCP deem him guilty of breaking the rules then I would be ok with it. However his actions are a direct reaction to the situation he was placed in by E1.

Should someone break into my my house at night I should not be held accountable if I have to kill the guy to protect my family and kids. His actions dictated my response. Would be like a guy trying to sue because he broke his leg trying to steal your tires from your car while you were driving it.